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	<title>Comments on: alt worship at wisdom&#8217;s feast [and a bit about singing...]</title>
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	<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/</link>
	<description>an alternative worship project</description>
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		<title>By: becky</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-80852</link>
		<dc:creator>becky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jun 2007 07:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-80852</guid>
		<description>Cheryl - I don&#039;t forsee the limit to your usefulness with the church - your reflections are far too valuable and hit so close to home.  You may come to a point where you feel in order for you to do your work, you have to leave the church. I admire people like you who are able to work within the institutional church - I tried and it about drove me insane. I&#039;m much better on the fringe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheryl &#8211; I don&#8217;t forsee the limit to your usefulness with the church &#8211; your reflections are far too valuable and hit so close to home.  You may come to a point where you feel in order for you to do your work, you have to leave the church. I admire people like you who are able to work within the institutional church &#8211; I tried and it about drove me insane. I&#8217;m much better on the fringe.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-80266</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:51:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-80266</guid>
		<description>i certainly say it at every workshop... over and over, actually! along with a whole pile of other disclaimers... that this is not a takeover of mainstream worship, that it&#039;s not a critique of mainstream worship, that just because it changes the role of leaders doesn&#039;t mean that the ordained are a threatened species, etc. etc. I say these things over and over... though it seems they are the hardest things for participants to hear/believe.

One of the things that makes doing alt worship workshops really hard with those who lead mainstream / established worship, is that they will always look at it through the lens of the mainstream... the mainstream is the norm, and anything else has to be defined through that language / model / lens. The hardest part of last week&#039;s workshop, for me, was that i haven&#039;t moved in church circles for so long, and i&#039;ve forgotten the extent of the translation i need to do in my head to get back into that mindset.

i also don&#039;t like how my mind works within that mindset... which is an interesting personal reflection. it may show that sometime soon i&#039;ll have run the limit of my usefulness with the church... in which case i&#039;ll go back to plan A: work for a bank and do sacred space stuff in the rest of my life [probably with a much stronger post-christian emphasis]. i have this very strong urge at the moment to be out of the radar of the church!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i certainly say it at every workshop&#8230; over and over, actually! along with a whole pile of other disclaimers&#8230; that this is not a takeover of mainstream worship, that it&#8217;s not a critique of mainstream worship, that just because it changes the role of leaders doesn&#8217;t mean that the ordained are a threatened species, etc. etc. I say these things over and over&#8230; though it seems they are the hardest things for participants to hear/believe.</p>
<p>One of the things that makes doing alt worship workshops really hard with those who lead mainstream / established worship, is that they will always look at it through the lens of the mainstream&#8230; the mainstream is the norm, and anything else has to be defined through that language / model / lens. The hardest part of last week&#8217;s workshop, for me, was that i haven&#8217;t moved in church circles for so long, and i&#8217;ve forgotten the extent of the translation i need to do in my head to get back into that mindset.</p>
<p>i also don&#8217;t like how my mind works within that mindset&#8230; which is an interesting personal reflection. it may show that sometime soon i&#8217;ll have run the limit of my usefulness with the church&#8230; in which case i&#8217;ll go back to plan A: work for a bank and do sacred space stuff in the rest of my life [probably with a much stronger post-christian emphasis]. i have this very strong urge at the moment to be out of the radar of the church!</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Redman</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-80257</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Redman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2007 23:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-80257</guid>
		<description>Cheryl, I think you&#039;re right about this for those involved in alt.worship.  However, I think it might actually be important to say this when you&#039;re doing workshops for the wider church.  I think the mindset in the wider church is that worship happens every week, so if we are going to do alt.worship, we will do it every week.  We will make the 7 pm service the alt.worship service and when the leadership team burns out after twelve months either we will be very surprised or we will know that  it was just a nasty post-modern trend that we can now safely ignore because we tried it and it didn&#039;t work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cheryl, I think you&#8217;re right about this for those involved in alt.worship.  However, I think it might actually be important to say this when you&#8217;re doing workshops for the wider church.  I think the mindset in the wider church is that worship happens every week, so if we are going to do alt.worship, we will do it every week.  We will make the 7 pm service the alt.worship service and when the leadership team burns out after twelve months either we will be very surprised or we will know that  it was just a nasty post-modern trend that we can now safely ignore because we tried it and it didn&#8217;t work.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-79747</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-79747</guid>
		<description>Judy, i don&#039;t think anyone thinks this should be done every week. most alt worship communities do this kind of thing monthly, and rely on a community of people to make it happen - for whom the preparation is part of their worship. 

i normally begin with the lectionary reading, if i&#039;m doing worship with a church group. otherwise it will be seasonal or random themes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judy, i don&#8217;t think anyone thinks this should be done every week. most alt worship communities do this kind of thing monthly, and rely on a community of people to make it happen &#8211; for whom the preparation is part of their worship. </p>
<p>i normally begin with the lectionary reading, if i&#8217;m doing worship with a church group. otherwise it will be seasonal or random themes.</p>
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		<title>By: bec</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-79746</link>
		<dc:creator>bec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-79746</guid>
		<description>^ ^ I don&#039;t use taize chants I&#039;m not comfortable with, and which I think others won&#039;t be comfortable with.

I won&#039;t sing Onward Christian Soldiers either.  :lol:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>^ ^ I don&#8217;t use taize chants I&#8217;m not comfortable with, and which I think others won&#8217;t be comfortable with.</p>
<p>I won&#8217;t sing Onward Christian Soldiers either.  <img src='http://holdthisspace.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Judy Redman</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-79571</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Redman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 11:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-79571</guid>
		<description>The label thing is interesting.  I was in the US in April and I went to a couple of sessions that were badged as &quot;adult Sunday School&quot;, but they felt sort of somewhere between contemporary worship  and alt.worship.  I would define contemporary worship as the hymn-sandwich format substituting contemporary hymns for the traditional ones and adding a couple of extra bits like drama, video clips and the opportunity for some sort of dialogue.  I think that one of the things about alt.worship is that you start with a theme/concept and look at how you might best convey it to the likely participants so rather than asking &quot;what will we sing?&quot; you ask &quot;will we use music and if so, how?&quot;

But what happens to alt.worship when it is done every week?  Things like Cheryl&#039;s Easter installation in the basement take time, effort, energy and are usually too much for a weekly service unless you have a huge people resource amongst those planning.  Do you develop some regular elements that happen most, if not all, weeks?  Or a set of favourite frameworks that are selected and adapted according to the theme?

Incidentally,  I don&#039;t mind Taize-style services, but I find some of the Taize music really, really, really, really offputting.  Not the melody, but the words.  I can sort of live with traditional hymns with words that I find offputting because they usually only expect me to sing things I find problematic once per hymn.  Taize music makes me sing them or listen to them over and over and over again.  If I try really hard I can sometimes lose the words in the harmonies, but by no means always. :-)  The one that jumps immediately to mind is Laudate Dominum.  God, for me, is not one who dominates, but the way the words fit with the music pushes that idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The label thing is interesting.  I was in the US in April and I went to a couple of sessions that were badged as &#8220;adult Sunday School&#8221;, but they felt sort of somewhere between contemporary worship  and alt.worship.  I would define contemporary worship as the hymn-sandwich format substituting contemporary hymns for the traditional ones and adding a couple of extra bits like drama, video clips and the opportunity for some sort of dialogue.  I think that one of the things about alt.worship is that you start with a theme/concept and look at how you might best convey it to the likely participants so rather than asking &#8220;what will we sing?&#8221; you ask &#8220;will we use music and if so, how?&#8221;</p>
<p>But what happens to alt.worship when it is done every week?  Things like Cheryl&#8217;s Easter installation in the basement take time, effort, energy and are usually too much for a weekly service unless you have a huge people resource amongst those planning.  Do you develop some regular elements that happen most, if not all, weeks?  Or a set of favourite frameworks that are selected and adapted according to the theme?</p>
<p>Incidentally,  I don&#8217;t mind Taize-style services, but I find some of the Taize music really, really, really, really offputting.  Not the melody, but the words.  I can sort of live with traditional hymns with words that I find offputting because they usually only expect me to sing things I find problematic once per hymn.  Taize music makes me sing them or listen to them over and over and over again.  If I try really hard I can sometimes lose the words in the harmonies, but by no means always. <img src='http://holdthisspace.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   The one that jumps immediately to mind is Laudate Dominum.  God, for me, is not one who dominates, but the way the words fit with the music pushes that idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-79531</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:38:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-79531</guid>
		<description>i know. i don&#039;t quite know what to do with the name thing... battle on regardless or look for something new... i guess i&#039;m getting used to living with ambiguous labels... :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i know. i don&#8217;t quite know what to do with the name thing&#8230; battle on regardless or look for something new&#8230; i guess i&#8217;m getting used to living with ambiguous labels&#8230; <img src='http://holdthisspace.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: bec</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-79527</link>
		<dc:creator>bec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-79527</guid>
		<description>yup, it makes total sense

and I agree with you completely re: the definition of alt worship - the problem is that it&#039;s a term that has, rightly or wrongly, become associated with a type of worship that reflects a specific subculture</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yup, it makes total sense</p>
<p>and I agree with you completely re: the definition of alt worship &#8211; the problem is that it&#8217;s a term that has, rightly or wrongly, become associated with a type of worship that reflects a specific subculture</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-79525</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 09:13:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-79525</guid>
		<description>i&#039;ll come back to the community thing, i need to finish the thought in my head before writing it.

i&#039;ve probably not been careful enough with language about alt worship in this post.

i think that alt worship [at its best] speaks into and from within the culture and context of the people who attend. part of the intention for me, when i curate it, is to offer a way where people can see their every day lives in a new way - to encounter a story of redemption, hope, grace that speaks both into [prophetically] and from within [incarnationally] the every day culture within which we live. that will look very different for middle class professionals than how it will look for people in prison. 

i find taize is wonderful for losing myself, for being held by the people around me. but it doesn&#039;t let me tangle with a story, it doesn&#039;t give me a space where i&#039;m confronted or provoked by the ambiguities of the world i spend my life in.  i think they&#039;re completely different forms of worship, and both have their space and moment. 

does that make sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ll come back to the community thing, i need to finish the thought in my head before writing it.</p>
<p>i&#8217;ve probably not been careful enough with language about alt worship in this post.</p>
<p>i think that alt worship [at its best] speaks into and from within the culture and context of the people who attend. part of the intention for me, when i curate it, is to offer a way where people can see their every day lives in a new way &#8211; to encounter a story of redemption, hope, grace that speaks both into [prophetically] and from within [incarnationally] the every day culture within which we live. that will look very different for middle class professionals than how it will look for people in prison. </p>
<p>i find taize is wonderful for losing myself, for being held by the people around me. but it doesn&#8217;t let me tangle with a story, it doesn&#8217;t give me a space where i&#8217;m confronted or provoked by the ambiguities of the world i spend my life in.  i think they&#8217;re completely different forms of worship, and both have their space and moment. </p>
<p>does that make sense?</p>
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		<title>By: bec</title>
		<link>http://holdthisspace.org.au/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/comment-page-1/#comment-79506</link>
		<dc:creator>bec</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 08:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alternative.victas.uca.org.au/index.php/2007/06/20/alt-worship-at-wisdoms-feast-and-a-bit-about-singing/#comment-79506</guid>
		<description>Sorry - I did notice the &quot;alt worship&quot; bit - I should have explained my post better.  My thinking is this: I like alt worship (a lot) but I&#039;ve often sat in alt worship services/experiences and found myself distracted by the fact that I found them pretty...culturally biased?  (I acknowledge traditional worship is as well).  I can&#039;t imagine most of the people I know who live on the streets, or any of the refugees I&#039;ve met, or even a lot of my friends from non-Anglo backgrounds really digging it.  I *can* imagine my tertiary-educated, decidedly post-modern friends liking it.

But they&#039;ve also liked the taize services I&#039;ve invited them to.  The thing I&#039;ve found helpful about taize is that on the one hand, the language is &quot;clear&quot; and &quot;specific&quot; enough for conservatives and moderns to connect with it, but also simple and ambiguous enough for postmoderns to connect with it.  There&#039;s something about the chanting, candles etc that appeals to a huge range of people - I&#039;d say that the only negative feedback I&#039;ve had has been from pentecostals who have a fear of candles (I kid you not - I have quite a few friends who basically regard having candles in church services as idolatory - I struggle with that one!!)

My question marks above a lot of what I&#039;ve understood to be &quot;alt worship&quot; have always been about worship style and justice.  I want to worship with a diversity of people, for that is part of encountering the Other, and it&#039;s part of building the Kingdom.  My concern is that alt worship has often appealed to a fairly highly educated, arty, progressive kind of crowd.  

This isn&#039;t really meant to be a criticism of alt worship, and I&#039;m definitely not advocating traditional forms of worship - I&#039;m just raising some of the questions I&#039;ve grappled with in the past and continue to struggle with.  

BTW - I have noticed your paragraph about community - I&#039;m just not entirely sure what you mean there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry &#8211; I did notice the &#8220;alt worship&#8221; bit &#8211; I should have explained my post better.  My thinking is this: I like alt worship (a lot) but I&#8217;ve often sat in alt worship services/experiences and found myself distracted by the fact that I found them pretty&#8230;culturally biased?  (I acknowledge traditional worship is as well).  I can&#8217;t imagine most of the people I know who live on the streets, or any of the refugees I&#8217;ve met, or even a lot of my friends from non-Anglo backgrounds really digging it.  I *can* imagine my tertiary-educated, decidedly post-modern friends liking it.</p>
<p>But they&#8217;ve also liked the taize services I&#8217;ve invited them to.  The thing I&#8217;ve found helpful about taize is that on the one hand, the language is &#8220;clear&#8221; and &#8220;specific&#8221; enough for conservatives and moderns to connect with it, but also simple and ambiguous enough for postmoderns to connect with it.  There&#8217;s something about the chanting, candles etc that appeals to a huge range of people &#8211; I&#8217;d say that the only negative feedback I&#8217;ve had has been from pentecostals who have a fear of candles (I kid you not &#8211; I have quite a few friends who basically regard having candles in church services as idolatory &#8211; I struggle with that one!!)</p>
<p>My question marks above a lot of what I&#8217;ve understood to be &#8220;alt worship&#8221; have always been about worship style and justice.  I want to worship with a diversity of people, for that is part of encountering the Other, and it&#8217;s part of building the Kingdom.  My concern is that alt worship has often appealed to a fairly highly educated, arty, progressive kind of crowd.  </p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t really meant to be a criticism of alt worship, and I&#8217;m definitely not advocating traditional forms of worship &#8211; I&#8217;m just raising some of the questions I&#8217;ve grappled with in the past and continue to struggle with.  </p>
<p>BTW &#8211; I have noticed your paragraph about community &#8211; I&#8217;m just not entirely sure what you mean there.</p>
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